Debbie Foster (00:03): 

Welcome back to The Powerful Leaders No apologies podcast, where we celebrate fierce, fabulous females making waves in the legal world. I’m Debbie Foster and I’m excited to introduce you to these women who are leading the charge with their bold leadership and influential journeys ready to be inspired by their powerful stories. Here’s the show. 

  

(00:27): 

Welcome back to another episode of Powerful Leaders. No apologies. I’m excited about today’s episode. I’m excited about every single episode because I love doing this podcast and I love having people that I have come to know and respect in the legal industry on this show. And today’s guest is Elise Holtzman. Elise Holtzman is the CEO and founder of the Lawyer’s Edge, and Elise and I met last year. We co-chaired a conference, women in Leadership Conference. We really hit it off. We had a blast doing that conference together and she’s been on my shortlist of people to have on the show for a while, and I think I’ve had to cancel on her twice. So I’m super grateful that she was so flexible and accommodating and don’t worry about it. We’ll just reschedule and here we are. We finally made it. So Elise, thank you for being on the show. 

  

Elise Holtzman (01:17): 

I am delighted to be here with you, Debbie, this is going to be so much fun. 

  

Debbie Foster (01:20): 

So much fun. We already spent 15 minutes on the phone just talking about all of the things that we probably could have just been recording the whole time. But Elise, why don’t you tell us your story? How’d you get here? 

  

Elise Holtzman (01:32): 

I started out as a lawyer, so I thought I was going to medical school. I was actually pre-Med in college for the whole time I was there. And I always say it would’ve been nice if I had figured it out sooner, but unfortunately I did have to take organic chemistry as a result. So when I graduated from law school, I went into a big law firm in New York City doing commercial real estate transactions and I absolutely loved it. I worked crazy, insane hours, wound up going to another law firm. It was a little bit easier in terms of the hours until I had a baby. The baby, this is a very long time ago, the baby, I’m not even going to tell you how old she is, but she’s in her late twenties, let’s put it that way. And the law firms back then, there was no such thing as part-time. 

  

(02:13): 

Certainly there was no such thing as remote work, and my husband’s a lawyer also, so it was just a little bit of a bad movie type situation where if you heard the stories, you would think that they were ridiculous and fictional. So we were living this crazy life where we never saw the baby, we never saw each other. The law firm did allow me to work, which they weren’t really doing for people, but I think they wanted to retain me. I wanted to stay. So they said that I could work. And part-time was 40 hours a week for 80 for 80% of your salary, and I was really working more like six or seven days a week. So the whole thing in my view became untenable. And because I didn’t have Lawyerist in my family, I didn’t have women mentors. There really were no mentors back then. There was no such thing as a coach. People weren’t really talking about this. There were no women’s bar associations, that sort of thing. I thought, well, this thing doesn’t work. And I left the law and stayed home with my kids for a while. One kid turned into two, the second turned into three, and after a number of years at home, which I love my children, but I’m not exactly earth mother, if you know what I mean. It was 

  

Debbie Foster (03:19): 

I know exactly what you mean. 

  

Elise Holtzman (03:21): 

Yeah. I was running every fundraiser in my town. It was an initial public offering that was going to be reported on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. I mean, I was totally insane. At some point it was like, what am I going to be when I grow up? And I started doing some research and because I think I was afraid of going back to a law firm, we didn’t have family around. My youngest has special needs, all of that sort of thing. I started looking for something else and I found out about executive and leadership coaching at that point. I did a full year certificate program in executive and leadership coaching and came out of it and thought, well, okay, now I have this certificate, what am I going to do with it? So I started the Lawyer’s Edge and it wasn’t even called the Lawyer’s Edge at the beginning. I wasn’t really sure what I was going to do with it. And I quickly realized that because I know the legal industry, because I loved being a lawyer. I wanted to work with Lawyerist and people in the legal profession. And so for the past 15 plus years, that’s what we’ve been doing is working exclusively with Lawyerist and law firms to help them grow thriving practices and enjoy what they’re doing. 

  

Debbie Foster (04:23): 

So your website, which I love by the way, I was poking around on it before we got on the call, and I love your website. I love that green. I don’t know, I’m just, that color 

  

Elise Holtzman (04:32): 

Makes me happy. 

  

Debbie Foster (04:33): 

It really makes me happy too. You have some in your shirt today too, but I love that green. But the very front page of your website says, transforming Lawyerist into rainmakers and leaders business and leadership development for law firms and Lawyerist. I cannot think of anything that Lawyerist need more than business and leadership development. That is such an absent idea in a law firm. You get to be a leader in a law firm because you are the best lawyer or you were the best real estate attorney, and so we should put you in charge of all the real estate attorneys, or you are the best paralegal and we’re going to put you in charge of the paralegals or whatever that looks like. And we forget about the part where people don’t just know how to lead and people don’t just know how to be. So I love that you’re doing that. Tell us how does someone find you? 

  

Elise Holtzman (05:30): 

Well, thank you for asking that. So I’ll get to that in a second if it’s okay with you. I just want to double down on what you were just saying because we know that Lawyerist have these blind spots when it comes to rainmaking or what we call business development or what normal people call sales that we don’t want to call sales and leadership. And I think there are a lot of reasons for that. One is nobody ever taught it to us. So when you go to law school, I always say they give us two things. They give us a foundation in the law. So you learn contracts and torts and constitutional law and criminal law, and then they teach you how to think like a lawyer. So you can never think a normal person again. And then they just say, go have a great career. 

  

(06:09): 

They don’t even teach you how to run a case. They don’t teach you how to run a transaction. You don’t learn how to run a law firm, hire and fire people, manage lead, whatever it may be. So now you’ve got these super smart people who don’t have any of this training. Also, we tend to come from similar personality types as Lawyerist. We self-select into law school. It’s not like they come to universities and say, okay, give us a cross section, a random cross section of people and we’ll train them to be Lawyerist. So a lot of us are very, we’re literal and we’re detail oriented and we like executing on small things. We’re not used to necessarily striving for that big picture view of what could be in the future. And then of course, Lawyerist in law firms in particular are driven by the billable hour. 

  

(06:51): 

So then the stress is Bill, bill, bill, bill serve your clients. And as you pointed out, Debbie, oh by the way, you’re really great. You have a big book of business. We’d now like you to become managing partner of the firm. It’s interesting the way people find me. Some people, they must be really good searchers because some people literally find me online very well. When you’re a business owner, you always ask people, oh, so glad to talk to you. How did you find me? And sometimes they just did a really good Google search. But I do a lot of speaking, so I speak for bar associations and other legal organizations. I speak for a lot of law firms. I do a lot of networking. I have my own podcast, so I get to meet a lot of amazing people. Some of those people have a need for what I do, and then some of them will make referrals. And that’s how all of us can grow our businesses. Whatever they may look like is by doing a combination of developing relationships and then also raising our profile in whatever communities we’re a part of so that people know the value that we have to offer. 

  

Debbie Foster (07:52): 

Yeah, that’s such a, I mean, I love it when people find me online and I often want to say sometimes I do, but not always can you tell me exactly what you searched for, what 

  

Elise Holtzman (08:02): 

Were the search terms you used? 

  

Debbie Foster (08:03): 

It does give you some good, when I have been able to ask people that question, it’s been super interesting to hear what they typed in. And I mean, I think that’s actually probably really good advice for people to ask that question. And how are your clients thinking? How are they thinking about their problem and what they need to solve it? One of the other things that you brought up for a long time, when I would talk to a group of Lawyerist or a group of legal leaders, I would talk about that. That’s the way we’ve always done it phrase. And interestingly enough, I don’t hear that as much anymore. I hear a different phrase now, and I would love to get your take on this sitting in a room full of Lawyerist and we’re talking about business development. And someone will say, and most people are already thinking it, but someone’s brave enough to say, no one ever had to tell me how to build relationships. No one ever had to tell me how to get a new client. No one ever spent any time with me telling me what to do when I was at a chamber event. How come I have to go do that with these people? Why can’t they just figure it out like I did? I’d love to hear your take on that. 

  

Elise Holtzman (09:13): 

I hear that too. And I remember hearing that when I was younger, going back to my humble beginnings as a first through whatever year associate where there were a couple of women in leadership, and I’m not critical of it, it’s just an observation. I think they had such a hard time getting where they were going, and it was blood, sweat, and tears and a lot of those that their attitude was, nobody helped me get where I am. So I’m not going to help you get there either. Right? You’ve got to fight your way through it. And so look, I do some work with generational differences. I do some work with personality types, and I think part of it is every generation throughout human history has looked at the generation ahead of them and said, you guys are all sticks in the mud. I can’t believe that’s the way you do things. 

  

(09:57): 

You’re so old fashioned, you just don’t get it. Then we all look at the generations after us and say, oh gosh, you’re so lazy and you’re so entitled and you just don’t understand the way things are. And I didn’t have to do that. I mean, listen, so it’s funny. And yet we keep repeating ourselves. And you and I are similarly aged and staged. And so we know that this is what people say. What we do know about the generations that are currently in the workplace, the younger generations let’s say, that are currently in the workplace, is that they’re used to enrichment. They’re used to learning. They’re used to us getting them 86 lessons a week, whether it’s TaeKwonDo or baseball or they’re going to the tutor or whatever it may be. This is how this generation was raised and they’ve been raised to seek knowledge and they’ve been raised to learn more. And then we kind of get annoyed with them when they want that from us as the older generation. And so look, why should we all have to suffer? Just because you suffered, 

  

Debbie Foster (10:54): 

Right? Yes. So 

  

Elise Holtzman (10:57): 

I think that the legal profession is coming around, as you say, we’re not necessarily hearing the same things anymore, we’re hearing different things. But I think that many law firm leaders, most of them are coming around to the notion that, you know what? I did have to learn it myself. And guess what? I didn’t learn a lot of it. It’s not like all of the leaders who are in our generation or even the generation ahead of us, which is still in the workplace, are so good at what they do or are so relaxed about it. They’re stressed out, they’re exhausted. They don’t necessarily know what they do. And I think this recognition that just because we did it that way doesn’t mean that’s the best way to do it, is really important. 

  

Debbie Foster (11:33): 

Oftentimes when I hear this will say something like, do you guys remember that story about the had to walk to school barefoot? Ill both uphill on both directions 

  

Elise Holtzman (11:42): 

In the snow? Yeah. 

  

Debbie Foster (11:44): 

I mean, is that how we sent our kids to school? I don’t think it was. In fact, I think that they didn’t even have to take the bus. I think we all just got in our cars and we drove them to school. So things are different today. So there’s a couple of options you can dig in and you can just say, Nope, no one showed me, so I’m not showing anyone. Or you can drive the kids to school. Which one do you want to do? Because I think the better result comes from giving people what they need. 

  

Elise Holtzman (12:09): 

I agree with you. And I also think there’s so much opportunity even for the senior people to get such benefits in terms of satisfaction and leaving a legacy and feeling like you left the place better than you found it. And often when younger people will say to me, well, why would somebody want to mentor me? That’s taking time out of their, they’ve got bigger fish to fry. They’ve got their lives. And I think the reason for it is just that as you become more senior, as you have had certain experiences in your life, for most people, there’s tremendous psychological satisfaction and emotional satisfaction from feeling that you are somehow leaving the place better than how you found it and helping somebody else get a leg up or smooth the path for them. And so I think that the more that we can shift the mindset of people, that it’s good for the folks who are coming behind us, but it’s also great for us. I think the better. 

  

Debbie Foster (13:08): 

You’re so right about that. And it really is a reframing, right? It’s getting people to think differently about what people need to be effective as a lawyer or a rainmaker or a leader, whatever that looks like. And our firms are better when we invest that time, when we are proactive in investing the time in helping people become better Lawyerist, better leaders, better. And that’s really what your business is about. How do we get people thinking differently about leadership and business development? 

  

Elise Holtzman (13:42): 

Exactly. And I also think that we can draw an analogy to, you started talking about how we raise our kids and whether we’re driving them to school in the snow or not. And I think that there’s an analogy there that works when it comes to things like how we teach them to behave, sharing our values with them, know we’re not the same, but I can share values with you, I can share resources with you, I can share ideas with you. I can help smooth the path for you. And in that way I’m modeling for you how to behave with the next generation. So it is a pay it forward kind of a thing, 

  

Debbie Foster (14:15): 

Right? It is. 

  

Elise Holtzman (14:17): 

And so I do see a mindset shift I see among law firm leaders and among the Lawyerist themselves, an openness to learning, an openness to understanding that just because we’ve done it this way for a million years doesn’t mean it has to be done that way. And I often use this example that makes me giggle and occasionally make somebody else giggle, which is when I was younger and I moved to my town, I was asked to join a women’s organization and be on their board because they were looking to get younger women involved. It was one of these organizations where everybody in there was a grandma or a mom of older kids. So I joined the organization and they got a group of us together and they started asking questions about how can we attract more young women to this group? And God bless her, there’s this older woman who said something, we came up with suggestions and she said something along the lines of, we tried that in 1979 and it didn’t work. And so I think that Lawyerist have a reputation for doing that sort of thing. But I do think that there’s a change, and that’s where Lawyerist and law firms are reaching out more and more. And this because of your own business to coaches, to consultants, to hiring COOs and CFOs and CMOs and people who know more about a particular area that the firm needs so that they don’t have to feel that they have to figure it out all themselves and wear all the hats at the same time. 

  

Debbie Foster (15:38): 

For sure. And I want to dig in a little bit more to your business, but before we do, something you just said reminded me, I’m sure you’ve seen that quote. It’s like a conversation between the CEO and the COO and someone says, what if we train them and they leave and the other person says, what if we don’t train them and they stay? And I think that there is a challenge there to, because according to a recent thing that the A published, the average tenure for an associate lawyer in North America is 2.6 years. Now, I have my own personal opinion that a lot of the reason why that statistic is so terrible is because Lawyerist are terrible at hiring. Lawyerist 

  

Elise Holtzman (16:24): 

Terrible. 

  

Debbie Foster (16:25): 

And so if you hire the wrong person, the chances of them staying for a long time you should hope is low, right? You need to get rid of them. But it’s also a generational thing. We don’t hire lifers anymore. I still feel like there’s often a resistance for really investing in younger Lawyerist because they’re going to leave and why would we want to do that? And so I think that something you said before about the change in the mindset and giving them what they need and smoothing the path a little bit. I would encourage people to train them anyway, invest in them anyway, that is really what makes sense. We’re talking about paying it forward. 

  

Elise Holtzman (17:05): 

I could not agree with you more. And as you were talking, I was thinking of a couple of examples. I do think that there’s a shift, but I do still think that the shift comes too late for individuals. So if for example, law firms calling me and saying, we have several partners that we would like to have this kind of training or this kind of coaching, when if they had had these people who are wonderful Lawyerist and devoted to the firm come to us when they were fifth or 60 or associates, they would already be achieving certain things that now is going to take them a certain amount of time to achieve. And I’ve heard it said, same as you. Well, why would we invest in them if they’re just going to leave anyway? First of all, that’s one of those circular arguments. Maybe if you invested in them more and you made them feel that they were part of the culture and that you cared about their growth and development, they would be more likely to stay because then they don’t feel like they have to go to another organization to get that attention to get that training. 

  

(18:01): 

I think a lot of people leave because they feel like, well, they’ve pigeonholed me here. I’m not growing here, and the only way I can learn is if I lateral somewhere else because there’s a new opportunity over there. And I do love that quote about what if we don’t train them and we stay? So to me, yes, some of them are going to leave. There’s no question. We know that the marketplace has changed and that people are leaving sooner than maybe we did when we first started practicing. But what’s your alternative? Not growing your firm, not developing your people winding up with senior people who stick around and don’t know what they’re doing and don’t feel part of the culture. So yeah, I think it’s a really good point. I think the mindset does need to shift in that regard. 

  

Debbie Foster (18:42): 

So let’s talk about the Lawyerist edge and the services that you provide and how, from a tactical perspective, how do you help? I know that you do a lot of coaching and work around business development, but you also have a really cool Ignite program that I’d love to hear about. So maybe just kind of give the lay of the land. What does it look like? I’m a lawyer, I want to be a better leader. I want to be a better rainmaker. What does it look like when I work with you? 

  

Elise Holtzman (19:07): 

Okay, thanks for asking. So basically I would divide what we do into two primary categories, training and coaching. So we also do consulting work, but the vast majority of what we do is the training and the coaching. And when I say training, I didn’t even like the word training, but it’s really about turning the light bulb on for people, helping people understand concepts and structures and strategies and tactics that nobody’s ever bothered teaching them before and that they don’t necessarily have time to think about and learn on their own. So an example of training is me going into a law firm and doing a program that I’ve developed over the years called Lawyerist Making Rain. And there are different elements of Lawyerist making rain depending on how much you want to invest and how much time you have and what you want your Lawyerist to learn. 

  

(19:54): 

But the training is about knowledge transfer. And of course it’s engaging and it’s fun, and we do all of the things that you want to do in a workshop so that people feel like they’re part of it. I’m not just a talking head standing up in front of people and blathering because nobody wants that, but it is about that knowledge transfer. You and I both know Debbie, that you could go to the world’s best seminar or workshop, nod your head the whole time, think it’s the greatest thing in the world, have the light bulb go on for you in so many ways. And then because you’re super busy and because you’re a human being and habit takes over, you go back to your desk and you do the same thing you’ve always been doing. So it was a great idea, but there was no execution there. 

  

(20:32): 

That’s where coaching comes in. And what’s really cool about coaching, whether it’s group coaching or individual one-on-one coaching between one attorney and one coach is that it’s all about two things. Implementation, so that you actually take action. We hold your feet to the fire, help you execute on the things that you’ve committed to doing for yourself. We help you do that. So people talk about accountability. You’re not accountable. You’re your coach. Your coach’s job is to hold you accountable to your own goals and help you achieve them and overcome obstacles. There’s the execution part, the implementation part. The second piece is customization. How do you take what you’ve learned? There are all these concepts out there about leadership. There are all these concepts out there about business development. How do you take what you’re hearing in a seminar or reading in a book or hearing from somebody who’s senior to you and make it your own? 

  

(21:23): 

Do it in a way that aligns with who you are as a person, what your personality strengths are, maybe your geography, your practice area, your values. And so that’s where the coaching comes in. And so when you combine those two things, you get the information you need that nobody ever taught you, and you’re able to work with somebody who’s going to help you. Their whole agenda, their so agenda is helping you tackle obstacles and take action on your goals. You really see people moving ahead and achieving the things that they want to achieve in their life or in their career. And so those are the two primaries things that we do for Lawyerist. Now, it could be in different areas. So there are so many examples of how people come to us and why they come to us. We often have people say, I just made partner and it’s a whole new job. 

  

(22:13): 

I always say you go from the top of one pile, the associate pile to the bottom of another pile. It’s an entirely new job description. One does not necessarily prepare you for the other. It’s not a natural progression. The job description is actually different. So that is potentially a leadership type of a coaching situation where somebody says, look, I’m stepping into this new role. I have people relying on me. I want to put my best foot forward, but I’m not really sure how to do it. And we work with them on that. Some people say, you know what? I want to develop my own book of business because for better or for worse, as you and I both know in the legal biz, the people who are able to bring in more clients and retain the clients for the long-term and get additional work from them are more equal than everybody else. So they tend to earn higher compensation. They tend to be offered those leadership roles. They tend to have longevity in their organizations, and they can move somewhere else if they want to because they can call the shots in their own career. And so there are lots of different reasons that Lawyerist come to us, but they often fall into those two buckets, the business development and growth, and then the leadership growth and taking on new roles that they were not otherwise prepared for. 

  

Debbie Foster (23:22): 

Yeah, I love a couple of things that you said. First, I think that the coaching, after the training, you also get an opportunity to remind them of those light bulb moments and get them, keep them energized and excited. Because you’re right, you think about it like time management. I use this example all the time, room full of people. How many of you have been to at least one time management thing? Almost everyone raises their hand. How many of you have been to at least three? Almost everyone raises their hand. How many of you, you just keep counting and you see how many people, and then you start to ask questions. You don’t have to raise your hand. How many of you learned something new? Few people raise their hands. How many of you were reminded of something that you were previously taught? And it reminds me of this quote that people need to be reminded more than they need to be taught. I think that that’s something that’s super powerful about coaching. There’s an element of accountability and there’s this reminder thing, right? I am reminded of that thing that I was so connected to and that thing I wanted to do, and I have someone who’s going to help me get there. 

  

Elise Holtzman (24:32): 

I love that you said that. And it reminds me of something that I often say to the Lawyerist in the room when I am doing one of my workshops, Lawyerist can be skeptical. I think they showed up in law school that way. Again, certain personality types show up in law school, and then they certainly beat the skepticism into us while we were there. And so Lawyerist tend to feel like they’re smart because they are, and that they know a lot. And, oh, who’s this woman? And what’s she going to tell me that I don’t already know? And so what I will often say to a group, particularly if I’m told in advance that they’re a little skeptical is you may learn something new. You may not learn anything new. It may be that you’re simply being reminded of something that you’ve forgotten in your busyness. 

  

(25:17): 

And even if you do think everything that I talk about in this workshop, I encourage you to ask yourself the question, am I acting on my knowledge? Because if you’re not acting on your knowledge, if you’re not executing, if you’re not taking action on the things that you want to take action on, then all of that knowledge is not necessarily serving you. And so I think in that way, I can win them over because it’s like, listen, I know you’re a genius, but maybe you’ll remember something and maybe you’ll take one action that you weren’t going to take before you came in here, and that’ll help move you in the right direction. 

  

Debbie Foster (25:50): 

Yeah, I love that. And I think another part of this is what you learned five years ago, what you learned 10 years ago, what you learned 15, 20 back in law school, whenever likely has a very different application in the world today. And so even if you do know it and you did know it, one thing that can be applied seven different ways in the world of social media, artificial intelligence, web-based tools, there’s so much different context for us to take that information that we know and figure out how to leverage it for our own purposes to make something better, whatever that is. 

  

Elise Holtzman (26:34): 

It’s such a great point. 

  

Debbie Foster (26:35): 

Yeah, the reminders, we need them. I need them every single day. I need them. I have this little post-it on my thing that says, you can’t really see it, it be your best. I know that. But every time I look at it, I’m reminded like, is that happening today? Am I being my best today? Right, right this minute? Am I being my best? We all need those reminders. 

  

Elise Holtzman (26:55): 

Well, and there’s also the difference between knowing something intellectually and as I said before, executing on it, but even beyond that, knowing something intellectually and then just really feeling it in your bones and having it be part of who you are, not something that you have to think about consciously. It takes a long time for something to become part of who we are. And I think that it’s fair to say, look, none of us can ever amass all of the knowledge in the world. It’s simply impossible. It’s just a question of what’s the information that we need and that we want that’s going to help us achieve the best of who we are and help others become the best of who they are. 

  

Debbie Foster (27:34): 

Agree. And you said this earlier, and this is probably a good way to take us into our last thing, but you said earlier you mentioned habits and whatever we know isn’t relevant until we put it into play. And the way that we put it into play is we make it a habit. There’s very few things that if you just do it one time, it has like I can exercise once and the difference it’s going to make in my overall health probably has a better chance of being negative because I’m going to get hurt than it is going to be positive. Building the habits, whatever it is, being a better leader, being a better business developer, being a partner, building better and different habits is really where we see the change happen. 

  

Elise Holtzman (28:16): 

I think people also get frustrated with themselves because they know that engaging in habits is the way to get things done, but they see that they’re falling down on the job a little bit. And I remember this is going back 16 plus years. I remember in my coach training program one day, somebody raised her hand and said to the leader of the group, the teacher, I don’t have all of my own stuff figured out, so how can I possibly help somebody else figure out their stuff? And what I loved about the answer was, you don’t need to have it all figured out. If you’re aware that you’re figuring it out, if you’re aware that you’re on that journey and you’re taking that journey, then you can be helpful to somebody else. So it’s not that we have to know it all, and it’s not that we have to execute on it. We just have to keep growing. And I think that’s all we can do. And you and I both love helping people do that. So its a good 

  

Debbie Foster (29:09): 

Job. It is a great job. So I ask this question of all of our podcast guests at the end of the episode, and that is, what is your leadership superpower? 

  

Elise Holtzman (29:21): 

I am really good, I think, at helping people cut through noise, helping people cut through mental clutter, outside voices the day-to-day, drip, drip, drip of stuff that gets in our way so that they can come out the other side and laser focus on what it is that is most important and meaningful to them and take action on it to help them clear those obstacles out of the way so that they can see the opportunity and see their own ability to make something happen and then do it. And there’s nothing that, I mean, I sound like such a nerd when I say this, but there’s nothing that gets me more excited than seeing someone having a client who does have a breakthrough and is able to look back over six months of coaching or a year of coaching and say, wow, I really have been able to make something happen in my life that’s meaningful to me. That is just such a gift. 

  

Debbie Foster (30:20): 

Why you do what you do. 

  

Elise Holtzman (30:21): 

Exactly. 

  

Debbie Foster (30:22): 

I love that. Elise, thank you for being on the show. Your website is the Lawyerist edge.com, and we’re going to have all of your contact info in the show notes along with anything else that we mentioned that we think might be a good thing to link out to. But I would encourage you, if you are looking for an opportunity to become a better rainmaker, a better leader, you’re looking for a coach, give Elise a call and have a conversation and talk about what that might look like. But thank you again for being on the show, 

  

Elise Holtzman (30:50): 

Debbie. Thanks so much for having me. 

  

Debbie Foster (30:55): 

And that’s a wrap. Are you feeling inspired? Take that energy and go make a difference today. And don’t forget to subscribe to keep up with our latest episodes. And if today’s show really resonated with you, share this episode with your friends and colleagues. You’ll also find some resources and ways to connect in the show notes. So until our next episode, get out there and change the world.